Welcome to the Diet Doctor podcastwith Dr. Bret Scher. Today I’m joined by Amber O’Hearn. Now Amber has become one of the leadingpersonalities of the carnivore movement. I don’t know that she’s set out to do that. She sort of just came to itby her own state issues and because of her intellectand her thought process and her very good way of examining thingsand excuse things. She’s really become a sort of a go-to personto learn more about this carnivore gesture and it’s fascinating because on the one handthere are all these preconceptions that it shouldn’t be, that parties shouldn’t be living this channel, that there are all these risks, but they’re largely theoretical.And we’re going to talk a lot about that. Are there any corroborate perils, what do we need to be careful of, and what are the potential benefits andwho can this be a wonderful thing for? And it’s interesting to explore that especially as a cardiologistwith 20 years of training saying that this would be somethingthat’s awful for beings to do. But I review hopefully you’ll learn a lot todayfrom her balanced approach.We’ll also talk about evolutionand of course about fiber, which is a terribly misunderstood componentas well about how necessary and healthy that is. So I’m sure you’ll appreciateAmber’s approach, she’s very thoughtful, and this is a very interesting feelthat we don’t know a great deal about and we’re continuing to learn a lotabout from personal experiences and beings sharing their very intimatepersonal experiences like Amber has. So satisfy enjoy this interviewwith Amber O’Hearn. Amber , thank you so much for joining meon the Diet Doctor podcast today. Thank you so much for inviting me here, it’s a great pleasure. You are one of these personalitiesin the low-carb world that just everybody affections, everybody wants to talk to you, everybody wants to be around you, everybody wants to hear your story.And you have quite an amazing story thatyou’ve been very open and honest about that maybe sometimes can be difficultto talk about, but for you it doesn’t seem so. And it’s a story that involvesweight loss and maternities, but then also some psychiatric challenges. So utter us a brief introduction aboutyour modulation into the low-carb world. Well, you are well aware I wasn’t alwaysquite as open about it, but over epoch it’s become easier, in part because I think so many people canbenefit from hearing what happened to me. So I did use to tell my storyprimarily as a weight loss story, because that’s how I started on it, that’s how I got into low-carb.I don’t think I ever would have cometo the low-carb world if I hadn’t been overweighta few seasons in my life. So the first time that I tried low-carbit was for weight loss and that was just a regular low-carb dietand it was back in 1997 and I had tried other things, I tried to activity, I tried veganism and they hadn’t helped mewith the weight loss and I lastly remembered, “Maybe there issomething to this low-carb stuff.” So I had been participating in a low-carb dietvery successfully for many years and I do thoughts gestation had somethingto do that or maybe aging, but I was gaining heavines over era. So I’m 5/6 and I would say my standard weightis maybe around 130 pounds and by the time I got to the end of 2008, I guess I was about 35, I weighed almost 200 pounds. I’d actually stopped looking at the scalebecause it was too depressing.Right. But I was doing a low-carb dietand sporadically I would stop because I considered, “What’s even the pointif I’m continuing to gain weight? ” But then I would gain weighteven faster and so I would eventually go backon the low-carb diet. It wouldn’t take too long. I again was facing a weight loss issue, a load addition publication, and I procured some peopletalking on the Internet about doing what they were callinga zero-carb diet. That call is a little bit confounding because it certainly has to dowith animal nutrients versus plant foods.And so it was an all flesh food, no plants included. and when was this? How long ago? It was in the end of 2008. Wow, so really early timesfor that crusade. Yeah, there weren’t a lot of peopletalking about it, but the people that were talking about itwere parties like me who had been on a low-carb diet, had studied some of the low-carb science and were convinced that that was healthybut it wasn’t quite enough for them and only when they gave up the plantswere they able to see the results they wanted.And I didn’t think about itas a kind of lifestyle change. I thought well I could do thatfor a bit while and lose this weight perhaps if I’m lucky and then I could just returnto my garden-variety low-carb diet. Right. So I made a plan and it took me I would say aboutthree weeks to actually effort myself up to it and I planned to go on it for three weeks and then have a low-carb birthday cakefor my birthday. And that birthday cake never came becausethe results were so great for weight loss, but they greatly changed my feeling and so that’s why I’m stillon a embed free food today. So when you were havingyour load challenges, was that when you were also havingchallenges with bipolar form 2 ailment? Yes in fact if you look back at the timelineof various mood and weight hours in my life, the times where I hadthe worst mood troubles were corresponding to the timesthat I had the biggest weight problems.And it was only recently that I truly lookedback at that on a timeline Birdseye view and said, “Oh these are reallypretty deeply connected.” So I was diagnosed with majordepressive disorder when I was 20 in my first time of university…it was really unruly. And then I was on antidepressantsfor a long time. And in my 30 s I was re-diagnosedwith a use of bipolar affective disorder called bipolar character 2 and the difference between thatand traditional bipolar 1 is that you don’t have the psychopathic maniastates. So “youve had” the depressive place and you have a milder form of maniacalled hypomania. And so then I was actually really happyto be diagnosed with that even though it sounds much scarier, because I mulled, “Oh, this is whyI haven’t been able to get any real results with my recession treatmentbecause they’re treating the wrong disorder.And so I then went on this ghastly rideof a variety of bipolar drugs which never really cured. But then the carnivore diet do improve? Is that when you pictured the biggest change? It is and you know it’s funny because bipolar and depressioncan sometimes be slow-moving. So if you see yourself having a great moodwithin a couple of weeks, you don’t consequently thinkthat your bipolar affective disorder is medication, but it also seemed qualitatively different. Another problem with bipolar disorder, and it’s a clinical trouble, is that people who have bipolar disorder often don’t have the self-awarenessto know what’s going on or when they’re in what nation. And so I’d kind of learnedto distrust my own mind.So it took a long time to regain thatand to say, “Yes I actually am better.” But I’ve been med-free for nine yearsunless you weigh chocolate. I are of the view that weighs for somethingbut not as bad as medications in this case. So nine years, that’s impressive. Now people talk about the ketogenic dietas being “restrictive” and those who are in itobviously know it’s not restrictive. But then you talk about the carnivore diet and the people in the keto community, someone called the carnivore diet restrictive and crazy and for you to be doing it for so long, did you have a part of this cognitive distance, like “I’m feeling betterbut I’m not supposed to be doing this and perhap I’m doing something wrong”? Have you been grappling with that? Well, maybe for a very short timeas far as the feeling of restriction.I mean obviously it is more restrictedjust from a technical standpoint, but the feeling of restriction is actuallyI think a lot less. For one thing when you’re not eating anythingthat has any trace of sweetness in it the lusts for sweetened and for other foodsreally be done away with. I speculate even when you’re on a ketogenic dietyou can see this. If you’re in a bakery andwalk past those cakes with the blue frosting and you say, “Does that even registeras food? Probably not.” Moves you more nauseous than itch. Right, so when I walkthrough the products region, I wouldn’t say it acquires me nauseatedbut it’s like reasonably flowers or something. So I don’t feel inhibited and I alsodon’t have to try to eat a certain amount the way that even sometimeson ketogenic diets you do, you have maybe a protein restriction and that is likely to attain your mealsa little more restricted. Very interesting. Now why do you think this works? I necessitate I know there issuch a fascinating wild West feel that we don’t have scienceor data on this necessarily to say this is what works and why.So is it because it’s an elimination diet? Is it because there’s something beneficialabout that much meat? Is it because of a nerve inequality? I signify can you think of what–? And you’ve plainly donea lot of research into this and you approach thingsfrom a unusually academic standpoint. So what is your thoughtthat you’ve come across as to why this has worked for youand for so many others? It’s really the million-dollar questionbut I’ve had a lot of time to think about it and my thinking about ithas changed over the years. So when I started– you had asked earlierif I felt like maybe I shouldn’t be doing it, and everyone tells youthat you need to eat vegetables, that’s the narrativeeven in the ketogenic community. And so at first when I’ve realizedthat I felt so well, I supposed I’m feeling better in spiteof the facts of the case that I’m not eating vegetables. And it didn’t occur to me for a bit while to think, “I’m really feeling betterbecause I’m not devouring vegetables”, even though obviouslyit has to be that in some way.So one of the first insights that I gainedabout it was from reading Dr. Georgia Ede, who has written a lot about the factthat we evolved– weeds advanced … in order to survive they had to havea kind of biochemical security because they can’t run away. And so there’s been this arms racebetween herbivores including insects and plants on the other handalways trying to get this existence. And so it hadn’t been until I realized her undertaking that I recollected, “The things that are in plantsmany of them are actually toxins.” And so maybe that could bepart of the problem. One of the great thingsthat I learned this year was I went to visit a clinic in Hungary, the paleo prescription clinic, and they are treating patientswith chronic diseases working an all flesh diet, a highly ketogenic formation of the all flesh diet.Interesting. And their hypothesi is completely basedon intestinal permeability. How long have they is being done that, how long has that clinic been around? I think it’s on the order of five years, I’m not sure precisely. Very interesting. When I firstly heardof intestinal permeability, I thought it couldn’t possibly apply to mebecause I’d heard of Cordain’s work and he was talkingabout the lectins in particles and how they are likely causeintestinal permeability and then go on to causeautoimmune difficulties. So on the one hand the difference betweenmy feeling better and feeling worse “ve got nothing” to do with cereals, I already wasn’t eating grains.And on the other hand I didn’t thinkof a psychiatric problem was having anything to dowith autoimmunity. So I encountered those papersand didn’t look into them genuinely. But I didn’t realize that numerous flowers havethe ability to cause intestinal permeability or on the other hand if you already havean intestinal permeability publish then the virus in weeds that might noteven be starting it so much on their own can start make problemsthat they wouldn’t have if you didn’t have intestinal permeability. And that fixes it hard because you seeso many people gobbling bushes and doing just fine mean. And most people can tolerate weeds and say, “Well if there are toxins in theseplants why aren’t they altering everybody? ” And it might have something to dowith exactly pre-existing intestinal permeability or a genetic propensity and you sort ofhave to think of yourself as a special case, which we don’t ever want to do. So was that a part of, “I’m different, I don’t want to be different, but I am”? Yes, I mean you’re absolutely right aboutseeing individuals who are able to eat plants.It’s a little bit like in the low-carb world we identify for examplemodern hunter gatherer societies that have a higher carb intake and don’thave any signeds of metabolic illnes, diabetes or cardiac infarction, and so we say, “There you go, carbs can cause a problem.” But I think that you get to a certain pointwhere you have a certain amount of ill and now you’re no longer ableto eat those carbs and still be health. So I think there’s a latitude kind of situationwhere if you have a certain– maybe it’s an intestinal permeability topic, maybe it’s something else, but you’ve gotten to a pointwhere the embeds are no longer safe.Right, so the Kitavans are sortof the classic speciman of a high carb diet, but more relatively healthy when we talkabout the chronic diseases and the diseases that we’re fighting nowpresumably due to carbohydrates. But the same thing can be saidabout the “Blue Zones” populations, that they gobble their entire grainsand their fruit, and their vegetables, but we have to factor in their entire lifestyleand just how they live their life with their loosening and their communication, and their activity and what the other quality of their food arethat they’re munching and perhaps even their genetic. So they’re going to be a separate subsetand we can’t assume that we’re all the same, that we’re all going to be like that. So you’ve made this modulation years ago.And would you ever think of going back? Well, candidly I don’t really liketo play around with it much, because the consequences are so severe.I’ve had a couple of situations wheresomething that I had added to my diet, be it a complement, I don’t naturally use much complements, but I’ve tried things now and thereand I’ve resolved up lying on my bunked, looking up at the ceiling choosing I was dead and thinking, “Wait a second, I’ve been here before.” That’s spectacular, yeah.It really is and so from that position it’s not something that I’ve beeneagerly trying to test things out and see if I can reintroduce them. I’m also pretty satisfied with my lifestyleas I “ve said”, you know, the lusts just disappeared and beef and other meatsare quite satiating. But that said, you know, if I learned something new, I try to really restrain an open knowledge and I’m not at all averse to the ideaof learning more and seeing myself somewhere different1 0 years from now than I expected to be. So one of the most interesting conceptsI mull when thinking about a carnivore nutrition is thinking of it as a short-term interventionto fix something versus a long-term lifestyle and the difference between those.So as an example, you do it short-term, it’s liquidation food and then as you’re feeling betteryou gradually start contributing things in, like just some spinach, some broccolior cauliflower, whatever the client is likely to be, until you find something that’s a initiation so that you can start experiencingand enjoying veggies and find out what you can and can’t eat. Or just say, “I’m feeling better, I’m sticking with it.” So I consider the main question is, “Is there a chance? Is there increased risk? ” And apparently we don’t knowthe answer to that question. Yet another million-dollar question. Is your question, “Is there a risk to adding things back? ” or, “Is there a riskto not computing things back”? Sorry, “Is there a riskjust staying carnivore long-term? ” I think that’s the main question.The risk of adding things back, you will notice, because if you croaked carnivore for a reasonand something improved and you start adding things backand “youre feeling” those again, then you know you can’t add those back. Because the way I think of carnivoresit’s a great intervention to try and fix something, change something, but then I want to get peopleback to a variety of vegetables.Now why do I feel that way? Because again I’ve been ingrainedfor decades that this is not necessarilya healthful long-term alternative? Do I have any data saying that? Do I know that for sure? I don’t, but it’s hard to overcomesome of those personal faiths and hitherto now you are 10 years laterobviously doing just fine. So do you have any concernsfor long-term health or sustainability for you? I would want to enter thata couple of ways. One is, would you say the same thingfor a low-carb diet? Would you say, “Well it’s a good short-term intervention, “but eventually I want to see parties addingback potatoes and specks so they can get back to a regular nutrition? ” I has not been able to. But of course we do have a lot more datafor the low-carb situation, but it wasn’t too long agothat we had a lot less data and we had to kind of gowith our gut feeling of this is creating a better health situationfor you, so why mess with it? The other thing that I would bring up is these more recent societiesthat we have in the recent past that have been living on very low plant diet.So for example the Inuit, although their food is quite different in terms of thingslike the polyunsaturated fatty acids. The Masai are often brought up, the Mongolians who at leastbefore the introduction of wheat lived for very long time. They had two messages for food; there was red meat and lily-white food. And that was meat and dairy and theybasically didn’t eat flowers either and they were not knownfor their wimpiness. So I think we at least have some reasonsto believe that it could be quite sustainable. It’s interesting, with the Inuit, some people say they ate sea vegetablesand berries and with the Masai they traded for bananasand other…So I approximate there’s an arguing thereif it was truly 100% … does it matter if it’s 1% versus 100%? I signify it’s still a very low amount. But interestingly I are of the view that a lot of people who will say that there is no evolutionaryor population base who’s done this as a comparisonare sort of the vegans. And you can say the same thingabout vegans, there has been no societythat existed as vegan, but yet somehow that seems moreacceptable among the general population than the carnivore. The carnivore fluctuation seemshave created much more of an din again because of our dietary guidelines and where we’ve come fromand what we think are healthful. But when the question comes downto the nutrient absences … So with a vegan nutrition, which is a very restrictive diet, it’s well acceptedthat there are nutrient defects and you need to supplementwith B 12 and Omega-3′ s and perhaps vitamin D and other.So with a carnivore dietthere’s similar concerns, magnesium and seleniumand a number of others. So do you is my finding that you do supplement or that you would recommend peoplesupplement if they are on a carnivore diet? I don’t supplement and these though were traditionalbut I have been in this phase for a while, the traditional wisdomamong the carnivores that I know is that supplementation generally leadsto more problems than it solves. One of the things that’s really interestingabout nutrient dearths in a carnivore diet is that a carnivore dietis also a ketogenic nutrition if only mildly so. And as one of the speakersat the conference here was saying today when you are in a ketogenic nation, a whole host of metabolic pathwaysbecome different. And what vitamins are technically, are enzymes for metabolic processes, or coenzymes I should say. And so if you’re using a whole hostof different metabolic pathways it shouldn’t be a surprise that someof those coenzymatic needs are going to change in their levels.And so in some ways I thinkwe are back at the beginning, the RDAs are all based on high carb dietersand there are so many different factors. For lesson there are absorption factors. If you’re eating cereals or legumes then you’re going to need a higher levelof zinc than if you’re not, since this is phytates for examplethat interfere with the absorption of zinc to a very large degree. And so if you removethe floras from your diet all of a sudden the balance of nutrientsis going to change in ways that we can’t undoubtedly predict.That’s a very good point. So all the RDAs all the assumptionsabout what we need and we don’t need are for a grain-based type of dietor high-flown carbohydrate type of diet so this reforms that dramatically. So it really is sort of a periodof unknown though, isn’t it? It is. It’s fun and of coursenot without danger. Right, but one of the other conceptswhen you liken it to evolutionary cultures is they snack differentlyeven from a carnivore perspective. They dine nose to tail, they dine organ meats, they made use of the whole animal. And I don’t know about you personally but a lot of people in the carnivore communityeat sirloin steaks and ground beef and that’s it, more of the muscle meat.Do you have concern from that position? Do you think it should be more variedor even lending fish and eggs into that as well? Well I’m going to play devil’s advocatea little bit. How do you know that during our evolutionwe were eating nose to tail? That’s a great point, that’s an assumption, because when you had to kill, you didn’tknow when your next one was going to be and we’ve been taught that they madethe most use of that animal and they snack all of it. I don’t know any science that provesthat were not, that’s the sort of the presumption I suspect, isn’t it? It’s a little bit difficult to know. I’m not totally objecting to the ideathat we might have and certainly “if youre using” a timeof less abundance you wouldn’t want to throw anything awaythat you could use. But even though they are you look at our abuse of bushes, we don’t chew the crusts consequently and we were also, at least in certain times, maybe competing with other carnivores who might have for examplegotten to the carcass firstly, so if we were scavengers at one point we might’ve been eating a entire differentset of part of the body than the whole.There are also anecdotesfrom Stefansson for example that the Inuit weren’t eatingthe whole animal, that they were sharing a lot with their dogsand they were preferentially return organs. On the other side of the coin we know thatorgans tend to be high in certain nutrients that matter, critical for the ability in fact, so some people argue that you shouldbe eating the liver and the ability and I feel I have to be a bit agnosticat this phase; I dine organs myself because I like them, but I’m not really sure what the trueimportance of them is. So you mentioned the Inuit, what about the Masaiand modern hunter gatherer societies? We can still see how they eat.Do they tend to eat nose to tail? That’s an excellent questionthat I haven’t looked into for the Masai. What I know about the Masaiis that they principally eat blood and milk so they’re stop the animals alive and that would suggest that they don’t geta lot of access to the organs.But I is anticipated that at some pointthey probably do eat them. And what about the ultimate amountof protein? So in a ketogenic dietthere’s a lot of dispute about protein. To oversimplify it, the risk of oversimplifying it, the more insulin resistant “youre ever”, the less protein you can haveto remain in ketosis and the more insulin sensitive you arethe more protein you can have to stay in ketosis.I think is a relatively fair oversimplification. But then when you go to carnivoreyour protein elevations move up dramatically. Is there a concern of too much proteinnot only from a ketones standpoint but an overstimulationof mTOR and growing pathways and potential IGF-I cancer riskdown the road? Because that’s something that’s been talkedabout and examined quite a bit as well. I really like the lane you expressed that because I do think that a lot of itdepends on your insulin impair district and I know that some people in the keto worldand even in the carnivore world seem to do better on less protein. But it’s not all about ketogenesisin the carnivore world, which was really surprising to me actually because a good deal of the benefits seem to comejust from the abstention from seeds. And so there are people who I conclude eatso much protein on a carnivorous nutrition that they are in very mild ketosisor maybe more infrequent ketosis and hitherto they still seem to be gettingthe full interest of that.So for example you could imagine thatsomeone whose reason for being carnivore is that they haveirritable bowel disease, they wouldn’t consequently havean insulin trouble and so they wouldn’t haveas much therapeutic need for ketosis. The other thought thoughthat I would like to bring up is that maybe using a glucose located systemthat’s on requirement when you need it to be madefrom your liver is a still much healthier statethan bringing in exogenous carbohydrates. So that you’re always on this kind of, “I’ve got too much” or “I’ve got too little” and having to adjust to the outside intake.If you’re eating protein, the majority of members of your metabolic processesare still being primarily glucose, if that’s coming from gluconeogenesisthat still might be a healthier state than being on a high carb diet whereyou’re always having these blood sugar shakes. That’s a good point, where your glucosecomes from things for sure. So you’ve mentioned a couple of things, we spoke you and targeted … so there was weight lossand psychiatric aftermaths and you mentioned irascible bowelor even inflammatory bowel, it seems like there is a certain autoimmunecomponent to what a carnivore diet can benefit. So would that sort of be your go-toif somebody said, “Who do you recommend this with autoimmunitysort of top the schedule for you? ” Absolutely, autoimmunity isthe number one place where I’ve seen anecdotes and it’s not just that the carnivore diethas had a lot of good results in those maladies, but those diseaseshave no other situate to go.That’s a great point yeah. So why not try it? So whether it’s Mikhaila Peterson with herhorrible autoimmune arthritis that got better, whether it’s peoplewhere their thyroid ailment improves, or whether is Hashimoto’s thyroiditis orother inflammatory bowel modes … I signify what’s the illustrations that you’ve seenof people who have had spectacular improvements? Asthma, Lyme disease, allergies evenfor autoimmune and patently Crohn’s. Then mood ills is the second onethat I would bring up and I don’t know if that’s because humor ailments actually have an underlying autoimmune factor that we don’t know about.There is a theory, I don’t remember what it’s called, but it has to do with permeabilityof the blood intelligence roadblock. So if you imaginethat there’s intestinal permeability that’s affecting your immune systemand you’ve got that endangered, so you have now operators that shouldn’t be inyour bloodstream and if you too have a permeability problemin your brain obstacle then that could also havea same kind of consequence. But regardless of mechanismwe have found, at least anecdotally, that there are beings like me who haveeither bipolar disorder, nervousnes malady, depressive disorder. I haven’t heard anecdotesabout schizophrenia, but I have a high level suspicion that it couldbe helpful for those people as well. And like you saidis what other options exist and schizophrenia is one that not a lotof great options exist for them to be functional and feeling betteroff prescriptions with side effects. And that’s a very big challenge.So if he was able to dish that rolewhy not try it? I don’t know if you’re familiarwith the working paper … it was Dr. Westman and somebody else … they had a case study with someonewith schizophrenia on a ketogenic nutrition and they speculatedthat the improvement that they determined, which was drastic by the way … This was an elderly personwho had been schizophrenic with severe psychosis her entire life went on a ketogenic food and had completelike no more hallucinations. They suspected that there might’ve beena role for gluten and the absence of glutenin that particular case. And so if gluten is a problem then maybeintestinal permeability is a problem and maybe a completely carnivorous dietwould help people. One of the things about ketosisis I generally like parties to get into ketosis and try it for at least 30 epoches because there is this concept, “You don’t know what you don’t know”. You don’t knowhow much better you could feel. You may think you’re fine, but maybe you were able to feel better. Would you take it one gradation further and sayeverybody straight carnivore for 30 daylights? Because you don’t know, perhaps you’ll feel better? Is that a statement you’d makeor am I putting paroles in your speak? No, I utterly would.It’s really funny because people thinkthat they can reason from everything they know about nutritionor biological science and say, “I know what the effect of that dietwould be and it’s not going to help me.” But if you’ve been through this processof trying a ketogenic diet and being actually amazed at the, you are well aware, half-dozen things that happened to you that you didn’t expect and that nobodytold you that you could expect, positive side effects if you are able to. The same kind of thing happenson a carnivorous diet and it announces silly saying it, but it reallyhas to be suffered to be conceived. Very interesting. Let’s change a little bit awayfrom the carnivorous diet, because one of your other topics thatyou’ve written a lot about and spoken about is progression. And I’ve seena number of articles recently saying that agriculture and cereals happenedfar earlier than we believe that they did, so perhaps we advanced with grainsand not without grains and then others saying our ancestorswere mostly plant-based and we’ve got it all wrong and againit’s hard to understand the science, because we’re talking about something thathappened thousands of years ago and it is hard to separate sciencefrom publicity, from people simply powering opinion.So what have you learnedin this process of studying progression and trying to figure out the contributionsof meat versus floras versus grains? Well, I believe that we probably ever hadsome contribution of embeds in our food, but I think that a great deal of the timeit was very low. If we narrow down what we’re talkingabout in terms of the period, I like to think about the period from whenthe Homo Genesis started, a couple of million years ago, and when our brainstarted actually expanding.The thing about the capacity to getthe power that we required in order to feed not only our bodiesbut our mentalities, which actually requirea whole lot of energy; the more brain material you have, the more vitality you need, because it’s a very expensive tissue. In order to have been able to get thatfrom cereals and tubers we would’ve had to havea consistent supply of them and we would’ve hadto have had cooking.And there really isn’t any evidence thatwe had the widespread inhibited use of fire until maybea hundred thousand years ago which is much later than whenall this mentality expansion took place. And so you are well aware I meditate a lot of peopleget really excited when they find some specks at a siteand say, “See? We had grains back then.” But just because we had a few– I entail obviouslywe had to have come to it gradually.We didn’t precisely abruptly one daystart farming specks. We had to have discovered grainsand been using them a little bit and then using them more. There’s a great theory that the reasonthat we wanted to use cereals was actually because of the opioid effectsand because or because of beer– That’s a different story. But whatever headed us to be motivatedto do grain agriculture was a gradual process. And so it shouldn’t be surprising if we findsome evidence of some use of grains exiting deep backthan the onslaught of agriculture. The other thing about evolutionis the concept of intermittent fasting, because we didn’t always havefresh flesh available.The kills would be sort of intermittenttheoretically and so we would have to be fastingfor some part of that. Do you think that should play in–? I’m going back to the carnivore diet. Now do you think because of just sayingthat was part of evolution that that should also bepart of the carnivore diet? It’s another one of those thingsthat’s hard to say without actually being there because there’s some reason to believethat the abundance of animals was actually quite a bit more at that timeif you compare for example– you can look at bone evidence and be seen to what extent much dearth periodsthat civilizations went through by looking at– there’s a marker in the bonethat evidences fasting intervals. And there’s actually evidence that agricultural societies had much worseand most frequently asked famines and I think that’s because they were relianton this furnish that could be killed for an entire year. One bad hailstorm awayfrom destitution basically. Exactly, but the other thingto take into account is that the swine that we had access tobefore agriculture we had megafauna, they were much larger and there were probablya lot more of them, so you could have one killthat could perhaps last-place months if you knew how to store it.Right, that’s a good point. So without freezersthat would be tricky but not impossible. Yeah there’s evidencethat we are to be able articulate them underwater or that we could baked them. I think we really don’t know a lot and there’s a lot of debateon what happened. Yeah, but beings surely like to talkabout it like the brand-new what happened. Yes. I find myself falling in the same trap, like this is what I’ve heard, it meets ability, so therefore must be true but you bring up a delightful perspective that room; “We need to think about this differently”.Well I’m certainly susceptibleto it myself. Now another speedy change into fiber, because we hear a great deal about healthy fiber, that everyone is need our fiber. And the bowel microbiome, it is essential to feed the microbiome with fibers so that they are able to gettheir short-lived order fatty acids. And the diverse microbiomeis a health microbiome. So I guess that’s a lotright there to digest. It is a lot right there to accept. So let’s start with fiber.Why don’t you need your fiber? What establishes you so special? Well, I don’t think I’m specialin that view actually. So fiber first came into people’s awarenessI see with Burkett where he was comparing somemodern hunter-gatherers to Westerners and trying to figure outwhat was it about their diet that they are able to represent them so much healthier. And he noticed that they had more fiber, the one the particular peoplehe was looking at had more fiber in their diets and so he have recommended that as the above reasons. And I don’t thinkit’s really held up to scrutiny. So for example one reasonthat people have latched onto is that, “Oh, it lowers your blood glucose.” Well that may be true if you’re eatinga lot of digestible carbohydrates, but it utterly has no bearingon someone on a low-carb diet.Another reason that I have heard it can actually fill your gutand thereby cause you to not over eat. And I think that you need to give your bodya little bit more credit. If it’s not getting the calories it needs, the signal will get there. Right, if you’re eating a lotof processed foods and high carb nutrients you’re not going to get the nutrients andyou’re going to continue to be hungry and maybe adding fibercan help in that situation. But if you’re already eatingsatiating foods then the fibers are not going to servethe same kind of role. Yeah, but let’s talk a little bitabout the short-lived series fatty acid mind. So one thing that I have learnedis that you can get short-lived order fatty battery-acids whether or not you’re eating plant fiber. So for example I have seena study in pups where they grant thema wholly meat-based food and one that includedsome weed fibers in it. And the short chain fatty acidsthat came out as a result were exactly the same.Really? So the intestine bacteria will adaptto whatever it is you feed it. You don’t have to plantgut bacteria in there. You feed them and they will come. So if you deepen what you’re eatingthe gut biome will change very quickly. There will always be those that areproducing short chain fatty battery-acids. But then how importantare those short-lived chain fatty battery-acids? A quantity of parties point to butyratein particular and say, “This is really importantfor the health of the colon.” I’ve looked at a lot of the studies on the putative health benefitsof butyrate in the colon and a great deal of them seemed to come backto this idea of feeding with colonocyte. What is the case when you give the butyrateto the colonocyte is that it smashes it downinto the metabolite beta hydroxybutyrate. Isn’t that interesting !? Where have we heard that before? Another bit of datathat might be interesting is if you look at the literaturein germ-free animals– so a mouse for examplethat’s been to come up without any root of bacteriato fill up their guts, it is about to change that they live longer and thatthey have little solid on their bodies and for “the worlds largest” partthey’re more actively involved and they certainly don’t seemto be jeopardized by it.Interesting. So there are a lot of reasons to think thatwhat we think we know about the nerve biome isn’t consequently so. So one of the argumentsis that breastmilk has precursors that help your gut biome matureand turning into short chain fatty acids and make it more diversewhich is a healthier microbiome. Well, hold on now. The only lieu that I’ve seen that’s information sources of the ideathat a more diverse gut biome is healthier was a comparison with the Hadza. Right, so perhaps I’m confusingmy testify here. Because the Hadza clearly saidthat they were more diverse compared to the industrial societieswith quite different foods. So scratch that one from the record, scratch the more diverse, but that is important for the developmentof the microbiome…With the breast milk. So would you say thatthat’s a short-term need and once it’s developed in longer-termyou don’t need the same precursors more? I precisely don’t think that we know. I are of the view that the bowel is extremely importantand I wouldn’t want to be understood as saying that I didn’t thinkthat the got health is important, but I just think that controlling itfrom the outside might not be the best way to do that. Another reason that we might thinkwe need gut bacteria is because some peoplewho have taken prebiotics have said that it’s helped themwith digestive problems. And my answer to thatis if you’re trying to digest something that you need sure-fire bacteriato be able to digest it, then feeding prebiotics that assistance that straingrow might be useful. But if you’re not eating lettuce then whydo you need the bacteria in sauerkraut? I suspect this is the point. You don’t needthose particular bacteria because you’re not trying to digestthose special nutrients. Yeah, very good point. Now do you follow yourself with labs? Are you an N of one tester or do you want to make sure that there aren’t any signsof deleterious consequences down the road? I’m terribly behind in this project.It’s not that I don’t think it’s important butthe last laboratories that I went were five years ago … Oh, interesting. So I actually have some labs lined up. I had dictated some this summerand they descended through … actually they were all lostby the company that made them so I need to do them again. But I’m really interested in that kind of data, it merely hasn’t been a priority. Yeah, because when it comes to sortof the general population understanding what a carnivore nutrition is and what it canrepresent and how can change things a big example is Dr. Sean Baker and as amazing as he is that’s whatmakes him such a horrendous lesson because he such a high-end athletesetting world records and his vigour involves are off the charts.So I think to try and use his labs and say, “This is what can happen on a carnivore diet.” It’s not such a great example. And that’s where people looks just like you and a more little extreme personon a carnivore food would be very useful. Are there communities where peopleare sharing their laboratories or sharing specially their haemoglobin A1cand their CRP’s and the lipids and so on about what happens? -In carnivores? -Yeah. Not that I know of.It could be happening. I think that would be very interesting. If you get your labs and share them that would be wonderful. I imply there’s so much that we don’t knowbut I think it’s clear what we do know is that this can be helpfulfor a number of people and I like your perspectivewhen there’s not many other alternatives, the potential risks seem a good deal smaller. I think that’s a very good wayto look at it.Yeah and you know the risksas far as I know at this place are theoretical. Very theoretical … Interesting. Well, Amber , thank you so muchfor coming on today to have this discussion. Any last words and where can people learnmore about you? I know you have a lot of information onlinethat can be very helpful for some people? Thank you for querying. I can be followed on Twitter, my handle is @KetoCarnivore and I’m very open to answering questionsas best as I can.I have two blogs. One of them it’sa kind of a funny historic storey. I fixed two blogs because I was so averseto talking about this carnivore thought that I didn’t want to framed it on my prime blog which was about the scienceof ketogenic foods. So I “ve written” some articlesabout ketogenic diets and that’s on ketotic.org. And then I started writing more personalexperiences about the carnivore diet on empiri.ca. Why were you averseto talking about it? Because it felt so unscientific.I couldn’t bring to bear a clinical trouble. All I could say was this is what I’m doingand this is what’s happening and I was very uncomfortablewith mixing that up with the other site which I truly wanted to presentas this is what the literature depicts. In retrospect I think that was maybe a bitmore ruptured than I needed to be.Well but I think that says a lotfor your coherence. Both your scientific integrityand just as a person that you don’t want to represent somethingas being something that is not, certainly with a rank of evidence. So I was informed that and I thinkthat’s important for everything, for parties to understandwhere it’s N of one, where it’s N of numerous and where it’s technical contests. They are all valuable but we needto interpret those differently. So I think it’s great that you did that. Thank you.Thank you so much for coming on today, I actually applauded the fact ..